More on Homosexuality and Abortion

(Below is my response to a comment posted on May 22)

Thank you for your candid comments. I hope everyone at Bethany thinking about these issues will voice their thoughts as you and the others commenting on the blog have.

I’ll respond to each of your questions separately:

“If I have relatives or friends who are gay and I love them and don’t try to change them I’m not a Christian? There are members of our own church who are gay, do we not love them as our own?”

We must keep in mind, the moral issue of homosexuality is not about “orientation.” It is about behavior. It’s not about the way gay people are born, but about how they choose to respond to the way they were born. The Christian view on human sexuality, as clearly and unambiguously given in scripture, is that our capacity of sex is a morally significant thing. Sex was designed by God as a means of procreation and spiritual/emotional bonding between one man and one woman in the context of a life-long marriage. Any time sexual intercourse happens outside that context, it is sin. Not only is this point made clearly and consistently in the Bible, it is the position that has been held by all of the most influential and trustworthy Christian leaders for the past 2,000 years.

Regarding your question about gay friends or family members whom we love. Loving someone necessarily means seeking that person’s best interest. If we have loved ones who are openly practicing sexual sin (be it homosexuality or open marriage or legal prostitution--each of these takes place among consenting adults) because they do not think it is sin, it is not in their best interest to refuse to tell them that it is sin. This would be like refusing to tell them there is poison in their favorite food for fear of hurting their feelings.

As for those in the Bethany family who are gay--(first of all I’m very uncertain about labeling people “gay” or “straight.” It seems to me an odd thing to identify people by their particular sexual desires. It’s also my understanding that this is a fairly modern distinction.) But in any case, if there are people in the Bethany family who, because of the way they were born, are sexually attracted to those of the same sex, then I gladly embrace them in solidarity. They are people who are seeking the grace of God to overcome the sinful tendencies they were born with, just like me.

I don’t struggle with same sex attraction, but I do struggle with lust. I am very happily married, but even so, every time I see a skimpily-dressed woman, I have to fight against the desire to look at her lustfully. This desire is completely natural. I was born with it. And it is also completely sinful. It is a cross I, and most Christian men, have to carry. It is something we constantly struggle with--often painfully. It is a part of me that must die, so that Christ can lead me into the type of life he has called all of us to live.

But how could I say, “No. This is my identity. I was born with a tendency for sexual lust, and there’s nothing wrong with that, and I want people to accept and affirm me for who I am”?

If there are people who are a regular part of the Bethany family who unrepentantly practice homosexual behavior (or open marriage, or legal prostitution, or promiscuity) then they should be confronted about that. It should be made clear to them that such behavior is sin, and that they should repent. They are no better or worse than the rest of us. All of us are called to repent of the sinful things we do naturally, and they are no exception.

“If I made a decision many years ago to end a pregnancy and don’t regret that decision, I can’t be a Christian?”

I want to be quick to say that I realize a woman’s decision to have an abortion is a profound one and one accompanied by many deep and complex emotions. Please don’t take anything I say as trivializing that.

The first thing that must be considered in answer to this question is what is said in the two passages from Jeremiah 1 and Psalm 139 I cited in an earlier post:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;”

“For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.”

The foremost question is, if someone believes that these passages are true--that they are inspired from God, how can that person believe that ending the life of an unborn child is a right decision. What does it mean to be a Christian if one has no obligation to submit his or herself to the authority of scripture? How could Christian morality have any meaning if we judge our moral actions only by how we feel about them afterwards?

To answer your question directly. If someone chose to abort an unborn child (not just a pregnancy) and does not regret it, she should.

But please, please understand. I am no better than a woman who’s had many abortions. I am someone who has chosen to do sinful things in my past as well. But if I have truly signed over my life to Christ--if I truly believe he is who he’s portrayed to be in scripture, than I must repent. I must ask his forgiveness and ask for the grace to keep from continuing in my sins. If I were to refuse to do this, what meaning could following Christ have?

With all this in mind, the one central thing that those who practice homosexuality and those who have had abortions and those, like me, who struggle with lust and narcissism, need to know is that God loves you. And the fact that he loves us necessarily means that he wants to purify us of the sinful urges we naturally struggle with, and redeem us from the sinful acts of our past. God loves us and there’s nothing we can do about it. And his love is a perfect and purifying one, and there’s nothing we can do about that either.

I want to reiterate how valuable it is to be able to discuss important issues like this in a candid but mutually respectful way. Such discussions are rare but desperately needed.

Please don’t hesitate to post your comments in response.

Mike

Homosexuality and Women Pastors

(The post below is a response to a comment posted to the previous article on homosexuality.)

Thanks for keeping this discussion going. I wish more people were compelled to discuss things as thoroughly as you.

The comparison you make between the Bible passages on women in church leadership and homosexuality is probably the strongest argument to be made in favor of the moral acceptance of homosexuality. However, I think when these two issues in Scripture are thoroughly examined it becomes clear that they are not parallel.

The passage you cite in 1 Timothy 2, along with 1 Corinthians 14:33-35, definitely seem to be as stark and uncompromising as the prohibitions against homosexuality in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6, but there are a few important mitigating factors:

1. One of the reasons some conservative Christians believe these prohibitions against women leading in church only applied to those in the specific contexts Paul was writing to is because there are other passages that seem to indicated that women do have a role in leadership or teaching. For example, in Peter’s Pentecost sermon he quotes the OT prophet Joel saying:" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.”

Also, Paul himself says in 1 Corinthians 11 that women should cover their head when prophesying. He also uses the word “Apostle” in Romans 16 to describe someone named “Junias” or “Junia,” who some very reputable NT scholars believe was certainly a female. (NT scholar, Ben Withierington III has a lot to say about this)

2. It’s also a big question whether or not the Greek word for woman in the 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2 passages refers to women in general or specifically to wives.

3. Also, something I think a very important consideration is the inherent nature of the issue in question. As I said in a previous post, a fundamental question in any discussion on homosexuality must be this: Is sexual behavior an inherently moral thing? When we talk about women church leaders, we are talking about what Scripture says is the right role for women in the Church. Those who argue against women in Church leadership don’t say that it’s wrong to be a woman, but that it’s wrong for women to assume roles that are contrary to the identity and function God intends for them. So the argument would say there’s nothing wrong with being a woman, but rather with women working in the wrong context. The same is true (not that I’m arguing against women in leadership) for heterosexual sex. What makes sex between a man and a woman right or wrong is context. The behavior itself is not wrong or perverse, but it is if practiced in a wrong context--out side of marriage.

By the way, this is why arguments that pair homosexuality with racism are not valid. Race is amoral; it is not wrong or right to be black, white or Asian. In contrast, it is wrong to practice certain sexual behaviors.

The thinking behind the prohibitions on homosexuality is not that it’s practiced in a wrong context, but that it is behavior that is itself inherently perverse. Certainly, the practice of homosexuality between two people who are in a committed, monogamous relationship is better than it being practiced promiscuously, but the act itself is thought to be perverse, regardless of its context.

The exact same would be true about incest. In fact, I don’ t think there are any prohibitions against incest in the NT that are nearly as strong and clear as the one’s against homosexuality. And yet there’s not much disagreement on whether that constitutes sexual perversity. And this behavior would not cease to be sexually perverse if it were practiced in the context of long term, committed relationships. I know this might sound absurd to even apply the phrase, “long term, committed relationship” to incest, but it probably would have sounded equally absurd sixty years ago to apply this phrase to homosexuality.

In turn this raises some important questions:

If homosexuality does not constitute sexual perversity, what does, and how are we to know?

If the context of a long term, committed relationship makes homosexuality morally acceptable, why is the same not true for incestuous or polygamous relationships? (Would churches who want to be “open and affirming” to practicing homosexuals also be open and affirming to a man and his three wives? If not, why not?)

Response to Controversies

For all who read the Bethany blog, I humbly apologize for my very long delay in responding to two comments posted a few weeks ago. I got distracted the first week and didn't check the blog as I should have, and then was recovering from surgery for a week and a half. I hope the blog will generate more frequent discussions, and I promise to do my best to respond promptly to any posted comments from now on.

One of the comments posted on the previous post was in response to the controversial issues of homosexuality and abortion which I focused on in a sermon. I have posted my response below on the main blog page because I thought it was too long for the narrow column in the comment section. In any case, please feel free to share your thoughts on this.

________________

Concerning homosexuality, Christians should not be concerned with the issue of “orientation.” I can’t say for sure whether or not people are truly “born gay.” (Though I tend to think at least some are). But this is irrelevant. Almost all heterosexual men are born with a promiscuous or polygamous “orientation,” in that most men have natural urges to have sexual relations with many different women. What matters is not the urges or orientations we are born with but how we respond to them--by praying for the grace to die to those urges and live a new life in Christ, or to give up the struggle and embrace the urges as “just who I am.” And by the way, the Christian standard of behavior for someone who has same sex attraction is the exact same for unmarried heterosexuals: celibacy. A celibate homosexual is, by far, living a more Christian lifestyle than a promiscuous heterosexual.

Though the prohibitions in scripture against the practice of homosexuality are unmistakable (Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6), there’s another line of reasoning that I think also shows it to be immoral. If we believe sexual behavior is an inherently moral thing (in contrast to amoral behaviors like breathing or walking), then there has to be moral parameters around it--to be moral necessarily means there is a right and wrong way to go about it.

If a person believes in a personal, Creator God, from whom we get our sense of morality, then it’s hard to understand how that God would have no concern about how we behave sexually. If a person were to believe that God does care, but his main concern is that we simply respect each other's wishes so that mutual consent is the ultimate moral rule, then not only should we have no problem with mutually consenting homosexual practice, but neither with open marriages, polygamy, pedophilia (or as a gay rights activist called it “trans-generational orientation”), and prostitution.

If homosexual practice is acceptable, I see no reason why any and all types of sexual behaviors shouldn't be affirmed as long as all involved are agreeable. There are a number of celebrities and public officials who openly, actively practice a homosexual lifestyle, and many people have no problem with this (some are quite proud of it). But many of the same people who celebrate the "diversity" represented by people like Barney Frank and Ellen Degeneres, would be disgusted if there were a congressman who owned one of the legal brothels in Nevada, or a talk show host who was polygamous or who had a twelve-year-old "partner." But why, if all involved are consenting? How can one "orientation" be privileged above others?

But, all this aside, at the end of the day, if we are to be faithful Christians, we must be faithful to scripture. Saint Paul clearly believed the practice of homosexuality to be sinful, and for us as Christians to say he was wrong on this would be to presume that we are more reasonable and more in tune with the spirit of God and the teaching of Jesus than he was.

_________________________________

As for abortion, I agree with you about the importance of the Catholic priest’s consistency. He certainly should not isolate one sinful belief or behavior and treat it as if it were worse than others. However, I think the central issue here is not denying communion to people who have sinned, but rather denying communion to someone who uses his power as a public official to promote sin as a cultural norm. I think most Catholic priests would respond the same way if there were some, supposedly Catholic, public official fighting to promote the use of birth control or the right to quick, easy divorces. These are things the Catholic church is squarely against. Giving communion to someone who holds positions that are diametrically opposed to the Catholic Church, and who uses his authority as a public official to encourage others to do the same, would take all meaning out of communion. This would be little different from saying, “Communion is for those who believe in Christ...and for those who don’t...and for anyone who thinks it’s nonsense but feels uplifted by it...”

And regarding the whole issue of abortion, I must be candid and say I simply cannot understand how any Christian (Or anyone who believes in a personal God at all) can believe that it is a good thing for women to have the right to abort a pregnancy. Of course, in cases where the mother’s life is in danger, this is not a clear issue, but such cases make up a fraction of abortion situations, and the pro-choice political argument is not based on that.

How could we ever say that one person has the right to end another’s life because that other person’s life is too difficult or inconvenient for the other? It is also true that if we hold that a woman should have the right to abort a child prior to birth, there is no rational basis to say she does not have the right to end the child’s life after birth. (In fact, Peter Singer, a professor of “Ethics” at Princeton, believes that women should have that right. If the right to an abortion at will is acceptable, we really have no argument against him.)

And if one were to argue that we don’t know when a fetus becomes a person, this (which I think a true statement) is just as much to the point. If we don’t know when a fetus becomes a person but allow an abortion anyway, we are no better than a hunter shooting into rustling bushes; maybe it’s a person, maybe not. We don’t know, but we’ll kill it anyway?

I must also add, as one with three adopted children, I cannot see how anyone could believe that abortion is a better option for the child than adoption.

But as is the case with homosexuality, and every other moral issue in our lives, if we are to be faithful to Christ we must be faithful to the scripture he revered. How can we hold a pro choice view in light of passages like Psalm 139:13-16:

"For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be."

And Jeremiah 1:4-5a:

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying,

'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;' "