11 Don't speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God's law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you.12 God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to judge your neighbor?
Thanks for your input. I'm assuming you mean this passage would apply to the issue of homosexuality in warning us not to pass judgment on those who practice it. The passage begins by telling us not to “speak evil” or slander one another, which, of course, we should never do. But I don't think recognizing a certain behavior as sinful is the same as speaking evil of someone. Obviously, we would not say that we are wrongly judging someone who makes pornographic films or runs a brothel by saying his behavior is sinful.
It's often easy to blur the distinction between judging other people in a condemning and condescending way, and making moral judgements about certain behavior while humbly recognizing the inclination in all of us toward sin, and our consequent dependency on grace.
I agree with your thoughts on judgement however I still have issue with the possibility that some homosexuals truly are born that way. I heard your comment that basically we are all born sinful and just don't do everything we want to do. True but is that too simplistic? Is there not a difference between a committed loving relationship between homosexual couples and someone who participates in homosexual relations because it's fun, or it's just sex or because they are just so lost that don't care. One being truly born that way and one totally making a choice. Where then do we draw the line. What about men who used to be women and women who used to be men. Is it ok if you are a woman who use to be a man and are married to a man??? What a about children born with male and female organs? Is it reproductive organs only that make us male or female or does it go deeper than that? I for one have way too many questions to judge. I don't think I would want to be married to a man who was pretending to be something he's not. I think sometimes it comes down to choice. Look at capital punishment for instance. We kill someone and it's murder, a sin. We kill someone for killing someone and it's justice. Is it also a sin? That debate is ongoing too. I'm not saying homosexuality isn't a sin or is always. Mostly I'm just glad it's up to God to know the hearts of everyone and I figure he knows just how he made all of us and has everything under control.
1) The discussion of the legitimacy of gay couples in committed, loving relationships is subtly misleading. Typically, the argument is that the love and commitment diminishes the sinfulness of the sexual behavior. But there's more to consider than this.
There is a clear parallel in a certain type of sinful heterosexual relationship. Consider this scenario:
A married man and a married woman who work in the same office are both having difficulties in their marriages. They frequently argue with their spouses over money and in-laws, etc. and as a result both are experiencing a period of real emotional coldness with their spouses. But they find themselves strongly attracted to each other, and begin to have lunch together, and to have long conversations after work. It may well be the case that the attraction itself is centered on very virtuous things—they are both very kind, considerate and selfless. They are both honorable and seek justice for the weak and needy—and these very things are what attract them to each other. Not only that, but the feelings they have for each other create much happiness and good will, not only between the two of them but towards everyone else, even their spouses. It is tempting to ask the question—as we could ask with a self-sacrificial, committed gay relationship—“How can something so right be so wrong?” But it is. No matter how pure the attraction is between the co-workers, and no matter the virtues that are brought out because of the relationship, it is still adultery.
With that being said, however, I think there is a difference between people who practice homosexuality within the confines of a monogamous, committed, loving relationship, in contrast to others who are promiscuous. In fact, it is likely that there are some people living with a homosexual partner, who, in many areas of their lives, seek to be selfless, generous and kind to others. And such a person (though he/she would still need to repent of his sexual behavior), in many ways, may be closer to Christ than some heterosexuals who’ve spend their whole lives in church, but are hard-hearted and self absorbed.
2) I make this next point with caution because I do not know exact statistics, and I recognize my perception could be wrong. However, I am skeptical of the number of people we are talking about. My suspicion is that the percentage of gay couples who live in a life-long, monogamous relationship is extremely low. If for no other reason, the fact that AIDS has spread so rampantly within the gay community is at least one reason to think that the majority of those who practice this lifestyle are characteristically promiscuous.
You raise a difficult issue with those who have been born with both organs, though again, I’m not sure there would be a lot of controversy only over that, because there are so few in that condition. But certainly the right choices for parents with a child born in that condition are not readily clear.
I work in a high school setting and see many things that are very different from years ago. And I understand that times are different and our society insists on rights to choose on most issues. Some days, same sex couples can be seen between classes. When I first witnessed this, my heart physically felt sadness to see our young ones embracing homosexuality so freely. But as time goes by, without realizing it, I must admit that now it feels different, I have become complacent without even realizing it. Is my attitude part of the problem? I still believe it to be a sin, but I am powerless to stop it and I'm forced to witness it, so I have been ignoring it. What is the proper response to it in a school setting? I must ask - Is it us who know it is sin, but with many excuses not to speak out on this issue, that have perpetuated it to the point of now being acceptable and therefore, society has used it's voice to now demand that it is a right? or a lifestyle choice? I don't seem to hear much talk about the physical nature anymore as much as I do that it's a choice/right. Yes, I know there can be exceptions but aren't they just that? Exceptions? Why now is it so common? Love ya, Kel! Terry
Your points are well taken. On number 2 I may beg to differ. On a personal level, most of the homosexual people I know are in committed relationships, and from the numbers of STD's I see reported every week right here in York, I think promiscuity is a whole other topic and not specific to homosexuality. As far as children born as hermaphrodites or inter sexed, I found varying statistics. I think the big question is how would we treat a homosexual individual or couple who chose to attend Bethany. Would they be welcomed as children of God or shunned, whispered about and treated like it may be contagious. The sad thing is I really don't know the answer.
This is something I think we all need to be reminded of: promiscuity is not specific to any one side, and is a huge problem.
You're right that the big question is how we would treat a homosexual person or couple who came to Bethany. I think the answer is fairly clear. We should treat someone living in this lifestyle precisely as we should treat a heterosexual couple who is living together without being married, or a single man who has a pornography addiction. We should show the love of Christ to each of them, making clear that they are in just as much need of God's grace (and just as eligible for it) as all the rest of us.
It's also important to add that if a person living in any of these lifestyles became a regular part of Bethany but refused to repent, he or she could not be baptized or serve in any position of leadership; these behaviors are just too clearly opposed to the teaching of Scripture (not to mention the tradition of the Church for 2,000 years).
I can relate. Before coming to Bethany, I worked for four years at a very secular high school in which homosexuality was not only accepted, but encouraged. In fact, my contract was not renewed primarily for explaining to a student the fact that Christianity (like Judaism and Islam) holds that homosexuality is immoral behavior.
I've also wondered about the point you make at the end of your post: Why does there seem to be so much more homosexuality (say, on a high school campus) than 20 or 30 years ago? I can't help to think that one factor is social conditioning--Media outlets have sent the message so clearly for so long that it's begun to really take root in people's minds.
It's a hard question to know how we're to respond. We must work within the sphere of influence God has given us to stand firm to show people that God has expectations for our behavior. And, of course, we have to live and love people in such a way that that shows them we have something worth changing for.
I also think it's important to be thoughtful on the issues and keen in spotting deception--like the misnomer, "homophobe" and the idea that a sexual behavior is the same as a race, as I said on Sunday.
But you make a point we all need to hear. We must guard ourselves against complacency and never allow the secular culture around us to affect the way we "feel" about what is and isn't sin. In other words, we must be "transformed by the renewing of our minds..." Romans 12:2
Sorry for leaving this out. As I said on Sunday, the perfect response to people in immoral lifestyles is seen in Jesus' response to the woman caught in adultery in John 8--He says she is not condemned, and then tells her to go and leave her life of sin. Both sides of the balance--grace on one side, and an uncompromising moral standard on the other--are essential.
Wow...So...in the schools. First of all I wish both hetero and homosexual couples would show some restraint when it comes to public displays of affection at school. It has gotten ridiculous. I don't think however that there are more homosexual couples, they are just not as afraid for it to be known. Now as far as pointing out this as sin to a teen that isn't your own. I don't know. That can be touchy. To me, with the questions I still have about what makes people homosexual, it seems similar to telling someone it is a sin to have brown eyes. If a troubled teen is struggling with sexual identity it could be life threatening to tell them it is sinful if they feel they can't do anything about it. I think some caution should be taken unless you know the kid really well. Sadly I have some personal history with that one. My wonderful, fun adorable cousin Shane took his own life after quietly struggling on his own with homosexuality. I'll never know what or who pushed him over the edge but he was so sure his family would not accept him that he drove across the country alone and committed suicide. He was wrong. His family loved him. It is a really tough subject in my mind. And once again I am so glad that God is bigger than all of us.
I share your burden over teens struggling with such a difficult issue. I think this is one of the areas where Christians have done a poor job of assessing the problem. The moral problem is not the urges, desires, orientations we were born with, but how we respond to them.
In the context of God's love and forgiveness, what we should tell a teen struggling with same-sex attraction the exact same thing we should tell a heterosexual teen who "just can't wait" to have sex with his girlfriend. Following Christ requires self-denial. But we must constantly emphasize (and I think many Christians haven't) that a person struggling with homosexuality is no better or worse a sinner than anyone else.
As I said before, someone struggling with that particular sin may, in many ways, be closer to Christ than many church-goers who think they're flaws aren't so bad.
11 comments:
11 Don't speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God's law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you.12 God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to judge your neighbor?
James 4
Joel,
Thanks for your input. I'm assuming you mean this passage would apply to the issue of homosexuality in warning us not to pass judgment on those who practice it. The passage begins by telling us not to “speak evil” or slander one another, which, of course, we should never do. But I don't think recognizing a certain behavior as sinful is the same as speaking evil of someone. Obviously, we would not say that we are wrongly judging someone who makes pornographic films or runs a brothel by saying his behavior is sinful.
It's often easy to blur the distinction between judging other people in a condemning and condescending way, and making moral judgements about certain behavior while humbly recognizing the inclination in all of us toward sin, and our consequent dependency on grace.
I agree with your thoughts on judgement however I still have issue with the possibility that some homosexuals truly are born that way. I heard your comment that basically we are all born sinful and just don't do everything we want to do. True but is that too simplistic? Is there not a difference between a committed loving relationship between homosexual couples and someone who participates in homosexual relations because it's fun, or it's just sex or because they are just so lost that don't care. One being truly born that way and one totally making a choice. Where then do we draw the line. What about men who used to be women and women who used to be men. Is it ok if you are a woman who use to be a man and are married to a man??? What a about children born with male and female organs? Is it reproductive organs only that make us male or female or does it go deeper than that? I for one have way too many questions to judge. I don't think I would want to be married to a man who was pretending to be something he's not. I think sometimes it comes down to choice. Look at capital punishment for instance. We kill someone and it's murder, a sin. We kill someone for killing someone and it's justice. Is it also a sin? That debate is ongoing too. I'm not saying homosexuality isn't a sin or is always. Mostly I'm just glad it's up to God to know the hearts of everyone and I figure he knows just how he made all of us and has everything under control.
Kelly,
Thanks for your post.
About people in “committed loving” relationships:
1) The discussion of the legitimacy of gay couples in committed, loving relationships is subtly misleading. Typically, the argument is that the love and commitment diminishes the sinfulness of the sexual behavior. But there's more to consider than this.
There is a clear parallel in a certain type of sinful heterosexual relationship. Consider this scenario:
A married man and a married woman who work in the same office are both having difficulties in their marriages. They frequently argue with their spouses over money and in-laws, etc. and as a result both are experiencing a period of real emotional coldness with their spouses. But they find themselves strongly attracted to each other, and begin to have lunch together, and to have long conversations after work. It may well be the case that the attraction itself is centered on very virtuous things—they are both very kind, considerate and selfless. They are both honorable and seek justice for the weak and needy—and these very things are what attract them to each other. Not only that, but the feelings they have for each other create much happiness and good will, not only between the two of them but towards everyone else, even their spouses. It is tempting to ask the question—as we could ask with a self-sacrificial, committed gay relationship—“How can something so right be so wrong?” But it is. No matter how pure the attraction is between the co-workers, and no matter the virtues that are brought out because of the relationship, it is still adultery.
With that being said, however, I think there is a difference between people who practice homosexuality within the confines of a monogamous, committed, loving relationship, in contrast to others who are promiscuous. In fact, it is likely that there are some people living with a homosexual partner, who, in many areas of their lives, seek to be selfless, generous and kind to others. And such a person (though he/she would still need to repent of his sexual behavior), in many ways, may be closer to Christ than some heterosexuals who’ve spend their whole lives in church, but are hard-hearted and self absorbed.
2) I make this next point with caution because I do not know exact statistics, and I recognize my perception could be wrong. However, I am skeptical of the number of people we are talking about. My suspicion is that the percentage of gay couples who live in a life-long, monogamous relationship is extremely low. If for no other reason, the fact that AIDS has spread so rampantly within the gay community is at least one reason to think that the majority of those who practice this lifestyle are characteristically promiscuous.
You raise a difficult issue with those who have been born with both organs, though again, I’m not sure there would be a lot of controversy only over that, because there are so few in that condition. But certainly the right choices for parents with a child born in that condition are not readily clear.
I work in a high school setting and see many things that are very different from years ago. And I understand that times are different and our society insists on rights to choose on most issues. Some days, same sex couples can be seen between classes. When I first witnessed this, my heart physically felt sadness to see our young ones embracing homosexuality so freely. But as time goes by, without realizing it, I must admit that now it feels different, I have become complacent without even realizing it. Is my attitude part of the problem? I still believe it to be a sin, but I am powerless to stop it and I'm forced to witness it, so I have been ignoring it. What is the proper response to it in a school setting?
I must ask - Is it us who know it is sin, but with many excuses not to speak out on this issue, that have perpetuated it to the point of now being acceptable and therefore, society has used it's voice to now demand that it is a right? or a lifestyle choice? I don't seem to hear much talk about the physical nature anymore as much as I do that it's a choice/right. Yes, I know there can be exceptions but aren't they just that? Exceptions? Why now is it so common? Love ya, Kel! Terry
Your points are well taken. On number 2 I may beg to differ. On a personal level, most of the homosexual people I know are in committed relationships, and from the numbers of STD's I see reported every week right here in York, I think promiscuity is a whole other topic and not specific to homosexuality. As far as children born as hermaphrodites or inter sexed, I found varying statistics. I think the big question is how would we treat a homosexual individual or couple who chose to attend Bethany. Would they be welcomed as children of God or shunned, whispered about and treated like it may be contagious. The sad thing is I really don't know the answer.
Kelly,
This is something I think we all need to be reminded of: promiscuity is not specific to any one side, and is a huge problem.
You're right that the big question is how we would treat a homosexual person or couple who came to Bethany. I think the answer is fairly clear. We should treat someone living in this lifestyle precisely as we should treat a heterosexual couple who is living together without being married, or a single man who has a pornography addiction. We should show the love of Christ to each of them, making clear that they are in just as much need of God's grace (and just as eligible for it) as all the rest of us.
It's also important to add that if a person living in any of these lifestyles became a regular part of Bethany but refused to repent, he or she could not be baptized or serve in any position of leadership; these behaviors are just too clearly opposed to the teaching of Scripture (not to mention the tradition of the Church for 2,000 years).
Terry,
I can relate. Before coming to Bethany, I worked for four years at a very secular high school in which homosexuality was not only accepted, but encouraged. In fact, my contract was not renewed primarily for explaining to a student the fact that Christianity (like Judaism and Islam) holds that homosexuality is immoral behavior.
I've also wondered about the point you make at the end of your post: Why does there seem to be so much more homosexuality (say, on a high school campus) than 20 or 30 years ago? I can't help to think that one factor is social conditioning--Media outlets have sent the message so clearly for so long that it's begun to really take root in people's minds.
It's a hard question to know how we're to respond. We must work within the sphere of influence God has given us to stand firm to show people that God has expectations for our behavior. And, of course, we have to live and love people in such a way that that shows them we have something worth changing for.
I also think it's important to be thoughtful on the issues and keen in spotting deception--like the misnomer, "homophobe" and the idea that a sexual behavior is the same as a race, as I said on Sunday.
But you make a point we all need to hear. We must guard ourselves against complacency and never allow the secular culture around us to affect the way we "feel" about what is and isn't sin. In other words, we must be "transformed by the renewing of our minds..." Romans 12:2
Kelly,
Sorry for leaving this out. As I said on Sunday, the perfect response to people in immoral lifestyles is seen in Jesus' response to the woman caught in adultery in John 8--He says she is not condemned, and then tells her to go and leave her life of sin. Both sides of the balance--grace on one side, and an uncompromising moral standard on the other--are essential.
Wow...So...in the schools. First of all I wish both hetero and homosexual couples would show some restraint when it comes to public displays of affection at school. It has gotten ridiculous. I don't think however that there are more homosexual couples, they are just not as afraid for it to be known. Now as far as pointing out this as sin to a teen that isn't your own. I don't know. That can be touchy. To me, with the questions I still have about what makes people homosexual, it seems similar to telling someone it is a sin to have brown eyes. If a troubled teen is struggling with sexual identity it could be life threatening to tell them it is sinful if they feel they can't do anything about it. I think some caution should be taken unless you know the kid really well. Sadly I have some personal history with that one. My wonderful, fun adorable cousin Shane took his own life after quietly struggling on his own with homosexuality. I'll never know what or who pushed him over the edge but he was so sure his family would not accept him that he drove across the country alone and committed suicide. He was wrong. His family loved him. It is a really tough subject in my mind. And once again I am so glad that God is bigger than all of us.
Kelly,
I share your burden over teens struggling with such a difficult issue. I think this is one of the areas where Christians have done a poor job of assessing the problem. The moral problem is not the urges, desires, orientations we were born with, but how we respond to them.
In the context of God's love and forgiveness, what we should tell a teen struggling with same-sex attraction the exact same thing we should tell a heterosexual teen who "just can't wait" to have sex with his girlfriend. Following Christ requires self-denial. But we must constantly emphasize (and I think many Christians haven't) that a person struggling with homosexuality is no better or worse a sinner than anyone else.
As I said before, someone struggling with that particular sin may, in many ways, be closer to Christ than many church-goers who think they're flaws aren't so bad.
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